Thursday, July 2, 2009

Demon, Lilith or otherwise

I have had this happen before but not very often I must say. Been working with this guy for some time and we have been in recent times learning about and dealing with a demon in his personality structure. I have written about this before at The Demon Since then Kenoath has set about articulating much more about the demon subpersonality with his writings on Lilith.

We all have a Lilith but not a demon subpersonality, but there are some similarities between them

I use two chair a lot when working with the demon. As I have said before many therapists in my view do not deal well with this because the usual approach is to in some way constrain or get control of this aspect of self that can be quite destructive at times. My suggestion is one does not attempt to do that but instead gets some kind of coexistence with it. That means accepting some of its destructiveness which most therapists would have a hard time doing.

Any ways we have been doing the usual therapy stuff and this man is very well read and most articulate. However his life has been a whole series of crises often influenced by this demon as I call it. He states however that this influencing part is more alien than the what the demon would be. It is not an aspect of his personality in the usual sense of the word.

He has in his past studied the satanic world and there was an incident in his 20s when he met this man for a brief period through a mutual friend. They disliked each other intensely and this person he states had some kind of influence on him in a metaphysical way. This is what he reports the alien part to come from. He states that prior to him meeting this man it was there in a rudimentary form but it was since then that it became more pronounced and defined. This part is frightening to him and this guy has a ‘tough’ character one could say.

Again he is a smart man who in no way is prone to being off with the fairies and reporting wild theories and beliefs. Psychologists however could easily account for what he reports about this alien part. It would be seen as either a kind of dissociation or mild multiple personality, a delusion of some kind or perhaps even a sort of somatic hallucination.

Multiple personality

I am not discounting any of these but in this case it is almost too slick and too easy to pass it off with some diagnosis as described. I have looked hard and he does not show any of the other signs one would normally find with a dissociation or hallucination and so forth.

So what does one do? First thing I do is keep an open mind. Don’t let my theories restrict my observations of him. I’m not about to break out the cross and exorcism handbook. In the final analysis he has to deal with it in some kind of way such that his life becomes a bit better for him. Use the model for dealing with the demon as a flexible template that is to be altered where need be. Try this and try that and see what unfolds.

Our theories at times make it very hard to just keep

observing what is there and what is not

There is a problem with psychological theories (and the scientific model in general) in that they can explain everything. It is in the very nature of how they are constructed to be completely deterministic. Every thing can be determined by them. Unfortunately reality is not like that. There are some things that cannot be determined or explained and maybe this is one of those circumstances. There needs to be a new diagnostic disorder included in the DSM-IV. The “I don’t know” disorder.



  1. One time when I was really upset and freaking out my mom screaked to be dad to 'call a priest' she thought I was posessed. -_-
    Lucky my dad's not a relgious person and didn't go along with my mom's crazy.

  2. You might get me onto my soap box with that one Lee,

    The simlarities of the church and psychotherapy.

    Glad you werent exorcised by your mom and dad


  3. "There needs to be a new diagnostic disorder included in the DSM-IV. The “I don’t know” disorder."

    I think maybe the problem with psycholigical theories is that the are seeking a disorder.

    I am not a church going person but I believe in God. Ergo I believe in evil and the devil. I have a few blog friends whose stories I have now followed for several years who as children where part of satanic cults. Whilst they have psychological challenges as a result, I dont believe that necessarily those adults who were part of the cult and abused them necessarily had psychological issues. I think they were just plain evil.

    And in writing this I am absolutely making no references to the man you mention.

    I guess I am just going off on the thread to say that evil exists, and it isnt a psychological disorder.

  4. Oh Kahless! Evil does exist and i don't believe it is a psychological disorder either. Thank you for saying that.

    Yes - and the "I don't know" disorder... do you thing that could please be the main and only Disorder found in the DSM-1. If it was the only one then there's no chance it could be skipped for anyother.

    Perhaps therapy has become a religous system and that's why everything is about rules? Turning people into inanimate objects and labeling them, i suggest, is perhaps not the evidence of wisdom?


    Guess what. Its Friday. *Giggles*

  5. I like it Grafitti - IDKDisorder. It has a ring to it that might just catch on. I know another one CBFD. Cant Be Fucked Disorder.

    Obviously your man seems to think he was triggered off by the meeting he had once.

    It does sound like Lilith may be working to stay under the radar. He (lilith part) wants to stay undefined and therefore "get something" from that vicariously.


  6. Hello Kahless,
    I am interested in your last comment about what is psychological and what is not.

    This man presents something that is unusual so I could quite easily make it a psychological disorder by merely diagnosing it as some sort of condition. Then people, society, the government would be happy. I could even tell him what my diagnosis is and then part of him would be satisfied as well.

    But the question still remains, Is it true or accurate. At this point I am undecided.

    (the router)

  7. Roses,

    I am glad that you brought up 'labelling'. At the moment in psychotherapeutic circles this is a very, very bad thing to do. It is all about the integration and cocreation of reality. These are things which I am sympathetic to. But at the moment labelling is seen as contraindicated and indeed is seen as insulting to the client.

    I have never had trouble with labelling, the DSM or seeing clients as being made up of bits or parts. I am quite willing to view people in the context of having three ego states and so forth.

    To me a label is a temorary thing that helps a bit in working with someone. I never 'believe' a label or a diagnosis. No one ever fits a diagnostic category. They fit a bit and not a bit, (hey that rhymes!).

    It seems to me to not label at all means you loose a powerful tool with which to assit people to feel better about themselves.


  8. I like that Kenoath - CBFD!

    Forget CBT and give us CBF!

    It could be him wanting to avoid the radar or it could be something else. I will wait and see.


  9. Sounds like a good plan Grafitti


  10. "...there was an incident in his 20s when he met this man for a brief period through a mutual friend. They disliked each other intensely and this person he states had some kind of influence on him in a metaphysical way. This is what he reports the alien part to come from. He states that prior to him meeting this man it was there in a rudimentary form but it was since then that it became more pronounced..."

    I think the answer to the whole thing might be right there. Why did he dislike this man so intensely? What was this man like and what did he do to gain such dislike? Much more importantly... who and what did this man trigger off in your client's implicit memory? If you can find that out, then you will know what is going on.

  11. Hi Anon,

    I am usually cautious with anonymous comments on my blog but I have guessed who you are so please keep commenting.

    I think you make a very valid and real comment and suggestions anon. They are questions that could provide more understanding of what is going on. It still rests on one assumption. That this 'thing' is merely a psychological disorder of some kind. It may not be and be something else instead.


  12. Perhaps you would be interested in reading my latest blog Grafitti?


  13. No. Labeling is bad. Perhaps useful - but bad. Have you ever attempted to get a label off dinner plates or furniture? They never really come off and if they ever actually do, they leave a darker spot where everything else has faded around it and stuff like that. It totally ruins the whole thing. Don't like labels - never will - always use them though... too handy not to.

    A router? Isn't that a tool? Or is it something that a cat does when it has caught the scent of a mouse? Hmm - mysteriouser.

    Poetic Graffiti - yeah... makes sense.

  14. I will suspend my personal beliefs about 'something else' and simply say that if it is 'something else', when you can answer those questions, then you might still find out the reason for the presence of whatever IT is. Even if you cannot satisfactorily label 'IT' with some name, you can still find out why it is here and what it would take to bring aid to the situation. I think it would also be helpful to find out what previous influences and/ or experiences resulted in the client's curiosity about the satanic world. I find it significant that he calls it an "alien" and that it was there with him in a "rudimentary form" before his interest in satanism and before he met the man he so deeply disliked. These statements are strongly indicative of it being an introject (perhaps a sadistic one), or a personality fragment. Furthermore, if you persue this line of investigation in a transparent manner, you might find that the 'demon' will become either frantic or furious because part of its job is to obscure the unbearable as a form of psychological protection against further disintegration of the personality structure.

    In any case, I think you can make progress simply by finding out as much as you can about the purpose of the thing.

  15. I will take a read of your latest post Kenoath later today.

    Just got to shoot off now and save some more lives


  16. Roses,
    I am sympathetic to your views. I understand the effect that a label or the labelling process can have on the relational or transference relationship and they can as you say be destructive.


  17. Ok, OK Anon!

    He didn't actually call it an 'alien'. If I have indicated that somewhere then it is my mistake. We were discussing his Demon (Liltih) and he stated that he felt it was more alien than that.

    As I mentioned before I have no expertise or desire to perform some form of exorcism. I will simply work with him to come to some sort of resolution between this thing he talks about and himself and I will certainly do what you suggest and seek to get more information on what he is presenting in the counselling room


  18. Ok Tony,


    Thank Goodness It's Friday Huh?


  19. Oooooooo oooooooo! Do a post on church/psychotherapy. It's an analogy I've made a lot. If I were choosing a belief system, I'd choose something a lot different than psychotherapy. I do think it is more like a religion than anything else.

  20. Or maybe you could do a post about the transformation of an introject. That would be cool.

  21. Having a bad day are you Sara?

    Coming over here and letting off some steam.

    Maybe you are just copying others like Roses and Anon.

  22. He Lynn!

    That sounds like a good thing to write a post about but I am not too sure what you are meaning.


  23. Don't mind me. I don't know what I mean, either.

  24. Like anonymous I am intrigued by the sentence about him meeting someone and this emphasising what was already there.

    In short the personality is only somewhat, not entirely, alien. Very tricky to respond to.

  25. Sara - are you under the impression that anyone into the discipline of 'psychotherapy' know that its a religion?

    I'm pretty certain that most of us are blissfully un-aware of that small yet poignant possibility.

    I need to ask you Tony,
    Have the last few comments from you been emotionally distressing or are they charged with sarcasm, or just matter of factly spoken? Are you playing a game here or are you actually upset.

    If it is the latter, would it help if i go away and leave you alone for a while?

    It does matter.

    I hope you're not working this weekend and depending on your response... i'll talk to you later.

  26. Roses,

    Tony likes you very very much and values you and wouldnt want you to leave him alone.


  27. Kahless,
    Thank you for saying that. I know how annoying i am or can be, and the fact that i get in the way so easily has not gone un-noticed by me either.

    The 'want' thing? Wants and needs (what's best for us) are often very different things. Sometimes they are opposites. Well, often times they are in my life anyway.

    I hope you're having a doosie of a day! Is it Friday for you Kahless? Have a great weekend!

    Gratefully... roses

  28. Actually its the wee hours of saturday morning and I am just about to turn in...

    Roses, I think you are too harsh on yourself. Read back on the last few posts and Tony's comments to you. I think he actually says how much he values you if I remember rightly.

    You are not annoying.
    Nightie night.

  29. Hello Evan,
    thanks for your comment. I see that you are a fellow Aussie. At the moment here in Perth we have 5000 US sailors celebrating July 4th. All the shop owners and ladies of the night are very happy as business is booming.


  30. Yes Kahless,

    You are right and i do consider Roses favourably. I told you the Williams sisters would be there at the end of Wimbeldon


  31. Hello Roses

    and thanks for your consideration.

    No. my comments were not meant to convey any disquiet on my behalf. I feel OK and I was not also trying to be sarcastic. I hope you keep saying your stuff here as I like reading it


  32. Oh Kahless,

    Gosh you're nice. Tony always says that to be 'Ok' is to learn to live with the things that are not what we would like, work around 'life' so our lives (as well as the lives we allow closest to ws) are not quite so hindered by them.

    To learn to live with 'us' so we can be as natural as possible and feel good in our lives.

    I'm assuming a way to do that is to understand (my) annoy-ing-ness and offer others a break from it. I like people, i like to be with (certain) people, so i have to be aware of just how much i make them crazy and if they need a break, then i offer them one, or just leave them alone for a bit. I don't know what else to do.

    I like to be alone lots. So i offer it to others - if they need to be left alone too. I don't know how else to be.

    I'm really hoping that you are having the loveliest dreams right now. Hope you get to remember the really good ones.

    Nity night... roses

  33. Tony?

    My last word varification was "ofoock". Hmm, maybe its just the weather?

    I'm relieved to hear that you're ok.

    Happy Saturday...

  34. So... umm...

    Hope your Tuesday is Tuesdaying along.